The punishment is toothless so far (yes Harbaugh doesn't need to be there on the sideline). You have predicted what could absolutely happen if they win it all. However, it is more likely that they are exposed and lose without the stacked list of plays and a shaken set of coordinators. It will be fascinating to see what result will seal their legacy.
I am unsure how we can look at this situation and blame Michigan for being upset over the lack of due process. Every single coach and higher-up at Michigan has said explicitly that they are cooperating with the NCAA, that they will accept whatever punishment comes, after they are done with a thorough investigation. The B1G, on the other hand, really botched this whole thing from top to bottom. I think Michigan is justified in its anger to how this has been handled by the B1G. And even if this is the "best case" outcome, that doesn't change the unfair process.
Substantively, the idea that there was a material competitive advantage on the field is tenuous at best. Let the punishment come for the rule infraction, if indeed it happened as alleged, but lets be reasonable here. Vacating wins would be overly harsh. Loss of scholarships or other financial sanctions seem more appropriate (let us remember the in-person advanced scouting rule was established for financial purposes, not for the integrity of the game.)
The risk of getting it wrong and punishing a team prematurely and hampering their chances at success far outweigh the benefits.
I tend to agree that the Harbaugh suspension was rushed and mainly for optics. But - and this is a big but - we don’t know exactly what the Big Ten and NCAA know.
Pulling Harbaugh from the sidelines is meaningful but I don’t know how important it is for the head coach to be there for those four hours. Sure he decides when to punt and call time outs and stuff like that, but that loss may be outweighed by the motivational surge Michigan players seem to be getting right now.
What is bothersome is many Michigan folks’ simultaneous arguments that (1) we don’t know the facts bc there hasn’t been due process and (2) there is no conceivable situation where Michigan merits being banned from the postseason. You can’t have (1) and also (2).
Your last point is well taken, and I generally agree. However I would also want to know: if (1) is true, how can a swift and significant punishment be justified? This is the whole issue; namely, there needs to be a full fact-finding process in order to substantiate a fair punishment. Without proper due process, that seems impossible.
How can we make sure a punishment is fair and adequate, without being overly excessive, if there has not been the proper due process? I suspect everyone has their own philosophical approach to this question, but from an institutional position I would argue process should prevail over power.
Yep, I totally agree that a serious punishment should not be imposed without due process. I think we should all be uncomfortable with the idea of a significant penalty that’s rushed and half baked.
However, due process does not necessarily mean *long* process. The facts don’t seem wildly complicated here; if everyone cooperates we should be able to figure out exactly what happened by early December. And that would leave plenty of time to impose anything from nothing to a postseason ban, whatever is right.
If Michigan stalls in order to avoid a postseason ban, I could start to get comfortable with inferences being drawn against them in the deliberations.
The whole thing sucks, but it’s tiresome to see Michigan believe it’s all happening because we hate them. I’m a Nebraska fan and it’s obvious to me that if they are banned it will be bad for the conference and all its teams. But if they deserve it they deserve it.
To be fair, this whole rushed, botched job by the B1G/Petitti happened because other coaches came out swinging calling for blood -- before any investigation or official notice to Michigan. I feel like its reasonable to feel unjustly targeted because of that.
Absolutely if they deserve it, they deserve it. And your timetable of December seems reasonable. Why then the hysterical outcry to act immediately and also have a more severe punishment? The timing was horrendous, and not just because of optics. I repose my initial point: Can we really, genuinely, blame Michigan for being upset here given the circumstances?
With the caveat of not having seen what evidence the Big Ten had, I don’t think the conference *needed* to make a move last week. A more experienced commissioner might have handled things behind the scenes in a more politically savvy way. But like I said before, I think banning JH from the game day sidelines is more optics than substance.
I think Michigan folks are failing to put themselves in the other coaches’ shoes, though. They seem to think the other coaches just hate Michigan, or Harbaugh, or otherwise enjoy seeing UM suffer. I think that’s far fetched - UM getting busted for this is not good for the conference. What’s much more likely is the coaches feel personally outraged and even violated after seeing what Stalions did, and feel like if there’s no punishment, then there are no rules. I mean, Stalions had an operation involving buying tickets to sit in their stadiums and film their sidelines to gain an advantage. These coaches have livelihoods that depend on final scores of football games. Their jobs are hard to get, and if they get fired they have to move, their kids need to find new schools and make new friends, etc. I don’t blame them at all for freaking the hell out over this. Those coaches would have absolutely reacted the same way if Day or Rhule or anyone else did this.
Double barreled question (really disguised comments)...both with IF TRUE qualifiers...
1. Do you have any sympathy for 'don't punish the innocent student athletes ' argument? Seems like arguing don't punish the innocent QB for a tacklers holding.
2. What do you think of significant forfeiture of TV revenue as a sanction? If this is about an unfair advantage, this would diminish the entertainment value knowing the deck is stacked.
Thanks Faux. Looking forward to your amicus brief on the TRO.
1) - No, not when the “crimes” are relatively current. If a few seasons have passed, that starts to hold water. Bad decisions by grownups impact innocent kids in all walks of life.
2) I don’t care about financial penalties and I barely care about scholarship reductions. What matters is the competitive stuff - trophies and wins on the field.
All points and perspectives well reasoned and consistent as we’ve always appreciated (and typically laughed). No doubt the commissioner is in a tough spot, but he has now made himself the bad guy. Like it or not, it does not appear due process or conference bylaws have been followed. The mob won (short term) and I anticipate this precedent will haunt this commissioner throughout his tenure...which my be shorter than Kevin Warren’s service.
I hear you, but if Michigan is guilty and this is all that happens to them, this is a best case scenario for them. It’s a relative slap on the wrist (if they’re allowed to play through the postseason) and they’re handed some “us against the world” fodder. Of course, if they’re innocent, this sucks!
The punishment is toothless so far (yes Harbaugh doesn't need to be there on the sideline). You have predicted what could absolutely happen if they win it all. However, it is more likely that they are exposed and lose without the stacked list of plays and a shaken set of coordinators. It will be fascinating to see what result will seal their legacy.
It will be fascinating for sure, and I wonder if there is more coming from the NCAA...
I am unsure how we can look at this situation and blame Michigan for being upset over the lack of due process. Every single coach and higher-up at Michigan has said explicitly that they are cooperating with the NCAA, that they will accept whatever punishment comes, after they are done with a thorough investigation. The B1G, on the other hand, really botched this whole thing from top to bottom. I think Michigan is justified in its anger to how this has been handled by the B1G. And even if this is the "best case" outcome, that doesn't change the unfair process.
Substantively, the idea that there was a material competitive advantage on the field is tenuous at best. Let the punishment come for the rule infraction, if indeed it happened as alleged, but lets be reasonable here. Vacating wins would be overly harsh. Loss of scholarships or other financial sanctions seem more appropriate (let us remember the in-person advanced scouting rule was established for financial purposes, not for the integrity of the game.)
The risk of getting it wrong and punishing a team prematurely and hampering their chances at success far outweigh the benefits.
I tend to agree that the Harbaugh suspension was rushed and mainly for optics. But - and this is a big but - we don’t know exactly what the Big Ten and NCAA know.
Pulling Harbaugh from the sidelines is meaningful but I don’t know how important it is for the head coach to be there for those four hours. Sure he decides when to punt and call time outs and stuff like that, but that loss may be outweighed by the motivational surge Michigan players seem to be getting right now.
What is bothersome is many Michigan folks’ simultaneous arguments that (1) we don’t know the facts bc there hasn’t been due process and (2) there is no conceivable situation where Michigan merits being banned from the postseason. You can’t have (1) and also (2).
Your last point is well taken, and I generally agree. However I would also want to know: if (1) is true, how can a swift and significant punishment be justified? This is the whole issue; namely, there needs to be a full fact-finding process in order to substantiate a fair punishment. Without proper due process, that seems impossible.
How can we make sure a punishment is fair and adequate, without being overly excessive, if there has not been the proper due process? I suspect everyone has their own philosophical approach to this question, but from an institutional position I would argue process should prevail over power.
Yep, I totally agree that a serious punishment should not be imposed without due process. I think we should all be uncomfortable with the idea of a significant penalty that’s rushed and half baked.
However, due process does not necessarily mean *long* process. The facts don’t seem wildly complicated here; if everyone cooperates we should be able to figure out exactly what happened by early December. And that would leave plenty of time to impose anything from nothing to a postseason ban, whatever is right.
If Michigan stalls in order to avoid a postseason ban, I could start to get comfortable with inferences being drawn against them in the deliberations.
The whole thing sucks, but it’s tiresome to see Michigan believe it’s all happening because we hate them. I’m a Nebraska fan and it’s obvious to me that if they are banned it will be bad for the conference and all its teams. But if they deserve it they deserve it.
To be fair, this whole rushed, botched job by the B1G/Petitti happened because other coaches came out swinging calling for blood -- before any investigation or official notice to Michigan. I feel like its reasonable to feel unjustly targeted because of that.
Absolutely if they deserve it, they deserve it. And your timetable of December seems reasonable. Why then the hysterical outcry to act immediately and also have a more severe punishment? The timing was horrendous, and not just because of optics. I repose my initial point: Can we really, genuinely, blame Michigan for being upset here given the circumstances?
Appreciate your thoughts, and the discussion!
With the caveat of not having seen what evidence the Big Ten had, I don’t think the conference *needed* to make a move last week. A more experienced commissioner might have handled things behind the scenes in a more politically savvy way. But like I said before, I think banning JH from the game day sidelines is more optics than substance.
I think Michigan folks are failing to put themselves in the other coaches’ shoes, though. They seem to think the other coaches just hate Michigan, or Harbaugh, or otherwise enjoy seeing UM suffer. I think that’s far fetched - UM getting busted for this is not good for the conference. What’s much more likely is the coaches feel personally outraged and even violated after seeing what Stalions did, and feel like if there’s no punishment, then there are no rules. I mean, Stalions had an operation involving buying tickets to sit in their stadiums and film their sidelines to gain an advantage. These coaches have livelihoods that depend on final scores of football games. Their jobs are hard to get, and if they get fired they have to move, their kids need to find new schools and make new friends, etc. I don’t blame them at all for freaking the hell out over this. Those coaches would have absolutely reacted the same way if Day or Rhule or anyone else did this.
Double barreled question (really disguised comments)...both with IF TRUE qualifiers...
1. Do you have any sympathy for 'don't punish the innocent student athletes ' argument? Seems like arguing don't punish the innocent QB for a tacklers holding.
2. What do you think of significant forfeiture of TV revenue as a sanction? If this is about an unfair advantage, this would diminish the entertainment value knowing the deck is stacked.
Thanks Faux. Looking forward to your amicus brief on the TRO.
1) - No, not when the “crimes” are relatively current. If a few seasons have passed, that starts to hold water. Bad decisions by grownups impact innocent kids in all walks of life.
2) I don’t care about financial penalties and I barely care about scholarship reductions. What matters is the competitive stuff - trophies and wins on the field.
All points and perspectives well reasoned and consistent as we’ve always appreciated (and typically laughed). No doubt the commissioner is in a tough spot, but he has now made himself the bad guy. Like it or not, it does not appear due process or conference bylaws have been followed. The mob won (short term) and I anticipate this precedent will haunt this commissioner throughout his tenure...which my be shorter than Kevin Warren’s service.
I hear you, but if Michigan is guilty and this is all that happens to them, this is a best case scenario for them. It’s a relative slap on the wrist (if they’re allowed to play through the postseason) and they’re handed some “us against the world” fodder. Of course, if they’re innocent, this sucks!